John Pavlovitz Transcript

Omkari Williams 0:20

Hello and welcome to Stepping Into Truth, the podcast where we have conversations on social justice issues and how we all get free. I'm your host Omkari Williams, and I'm very pleased that you're with me here today. Before I introduce today's guest, I want to mention that my book Micro Activism: How You Can Make a Difference in the World (without a bullhorn) is available now from your favorite bookseller. This book is my guiding hand to all those who are looking to find a sustainable way to be a change maker in this challenging time. And I hope you get a copy for yourself.

Omkari Williams 0:55

Now, let me tell you about today's conversation. My guest today John Pavlovitz is a writer, pastor activist and storyteller from Wake Forest, North Carolina. Over the past decade, his thought provoking blog Stuff That Needs To Be Said, has reached a diverse worldwide audience with over 100 million views. A 25-year veteran in the trenches of local church ministry, Pavlovitz is committed to equality, diversity and justice, both inside and outside faith communities. John's books include A Bigger Table, and If God is Love, Don't Be a Jerk. His new book, Worth Fighting For: Finding Courage and Compassion When Cruelty is Trending arrived on April 2. He currently directs Empathetic People Network, a vibrant online community that connects people from all over the world who want to create a more compassionate planet.

Omkari Williams 1:52

Hi, John, I am so excited to talk with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

John Pavlovitz 1:58

Oh, it is an absolute joy to be with you. Omkari. Thank you.

Omkari Williams 2:01

Thank you. So because I have more questions than we're gonna have time for let me just dive in. And I want to start with that in your introduction to your new book, which is so wonderful and I so love the subtitle. So It's Worth Fighting For is the title of the book. And the subtitle is Finding Courage and Compassion When Cruelty is Trending. And this is something I've been talking about with my friends for, sadly, at this point, years. And one of the things you say is you say that waiting for saviors and superheroes to come save us is a really bad idea. And I want to start there because I feel like in some ways that encapsulates the entire theme of your book. And it's like, there's no one out there. It's us here. So can we talk about that?

John Pavlovitz 2:55

Absolutely. I think at the heart of the book, and really a lot of the work that I do is about reminding people that they always have two things, they always have proximity and agency. So they are always somewhere and they can always do something to simplify it. And it's really something that I think we can forget with the relentlessness of the bad news and all the trauma that we're immersed in every day. Every once in a while, it's good to remember that we are not passive participants in this life, that we can really make alterations in the place where we find ourselves. And so that's what I appeal to people as they read the book to look for the ways in the small and close of their lives that they can do good work, and give themselves a sense of hopelessness that so easily seeps in.

Omkari Williams 3:47

Yeah, I think that's so profoundly important. And it's honestly, a lot of what I write about in my book, it's like, do the thing you can do, right? Do the small things that you can do, because that is what keeps us going. If we're always looking for the big win, we're going to be disappointed. The big wins just don't come that often.

John Pavlovitz 4:09

Right. And I talk a lot to the people that I speak to as I travel that we exist in both stories and in systems. And so those stories are those individual lives, and these once in history, never to be repeated creations that we cross paths with. And then there are the systems, the environments that those stories are placed within. And it's much easier obviously to work in the stories than the systems, the systems we kind of can work collectively and in community to address those. But the stories we always have access to those. And so that's a huge part of what I tried to help people go into the day remembering.

Omkari Williams 4:49

That's my love language because I believe that story affects everything. It's how we see the world. It's how we make sense of the world. It's how we do construct our understanding of how we should behave in the world. I like the classic thing of you grew up in the same household with your siblings, and you will have had certain experiences that are shared experiences. But you can interpret those experiences in dramatically different ways. We create our own stories out of a whole confluence of things that have happened in our lives. And those stories do direct our behaviors. So it feels to me like when you're talking about story, you're also encouraging us challenging us to explore our stories and see if they actually make sense in the way that we think they do. Because sometimes they don't,

John Pavlovitz 5:46

Exactly. And sometimes our stories, whether they're our family story, our story of our country, of our faith tradition, we can actually stop and realize maybe this is a lot of mythology that we need to discard and get better stories. And for me, that was the whole experience that I had growing up, that I was fortunate enough to get better stories about people who I really had existed on false stories or incomplete narratives. And so that's been something that I tried to remember that I've been fortunate enough to get that better information and it led me to better questions. And some people sadly, have not, for whatever reason, and story really shaped the lenses through which we view everything, as you said, and so sometimes it's you're having to stop people in the middle of a life that you're meeting them or you're crossing paths with them. But it's not just that moment, you're interacting with their whole personal mythology. And so that can be difficult.

Omkari Williams 6:44

Yeah, really, because no one wakes up in the morning and thinks, how can I ruin my life today? What's the worst decision I can make today? But sometimes, when we have these unexamined stories, they push us in directions that are not to our highest good or not to the collective good. Because a lot of our stories are based on fear. I mean, that's just the nature of being human. And I think that one of the things that struck me in your book was how much compassion you demonstrate for that aspect of humanity. That is, we are all afraid of something.

John Pavlovitz 7:29

Yeah, one of the things I can remember, when I started traveling, people would come up to me and tell me some deeply personal story. I'm walking through a church lobby or at a conference center and tell me something deeply personal, usually about a relational fracture. And I've been trying to figure out what can I give them in a couple of seconds to they can take back with them. And I always tell them to look for the fears and false stories of the person across from them. Because those false stories will drive us to hold a certain political position or have a certain theological perspective, or just really inform the way we view the world. And so what we want to do with people is always ask what they're afraid of, if we can figure that out, and possibly give them information that will change them not so that they agree with us. But so we can take away some of that fear. Because the rule that I keep living with is that no one is at their best when they're terrified. And we can look out at our nation right now and see a group of people who, because of the worst of politics, and theology, are really living perpetually afraid.

Omkari Williams 8:34

And I honestly think that, on some level, most of us are living with a lot of fear. I actually wrote something this morning about how if you even look at our advertising, so you're watching some silly show on television, but the ads are all based on fear in some subtle way. Are my teeth white enough? Am I losing my hair? Am I too fat? Should I put Botox in my face, it's all sort of based on a fear and that that construct is a really damaging construct for us to be constantly living with. It takes a lot of energy, and it doesn't encourage community it encourages being very self absorbed. And I think that one of the things you did in your book is you ask us to move towards, not away from the suffering of the world, which means honestly, moving towards fear, but with open eyes. So I'd love for you to talk about that.

John Pavlovitz 9:39

Well, I think moving toward the fear or moving toward the other, or someone you view as an adversary, I think is always going to be enlightening because that closer proximity is always going to give you a more accurate image of their humanity. Now that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to leave that exchange agreeing with some perspective, but you're gonna see the individual as a fully complex human being. And I think dehumanization is at the heart of so much damage that we do to one another. And if we can really see the full humanity of people, we can disagree fundamentally at times, even with them, but have them leave us with that humanity intact. And so that's a huge part of just trying to be an empathetic human being in circumstances where it can be difficult, it's a massive undertaking, to continually do that, because there's a wear and tear on on ourselves doing that, you know, I always share, we're dealing with two wounds the wounds of the world, and the wounds we sustain attending to them. And both of them need our attention. And it's often people who are deeply caring, they focus on the wounds of the world, and they neglect their own wholeness, their own health. So I think there's this dual kind of empathetic posture that we can have.

Omkari Williams 10:57

And that's really challenging, because I think we more readily see the wounds of the world than we see our own wounds. And so we can look out and say, Oh, well, this is broken, or that person is suffering. But we're not really educated to assess our own needs particularly well. So how do you sort of take a step back and look, and notice where you're feeling the weight of the wounds of the world, and it's become a wound to you?

John Pavlovitz 11:35

I think part of it is constructing a lifestyle where that is part of the rhythm of what you do. It's almost like physical health and it includes physical health, really, to make sure that we're doing these daily practices, whether it's eating well, or sleeping, or hydrating, but then also physical activity, great relational connections, time in nature. It's sort of a maintenance plan, because when you get into a season where suddenly you realize you're in a place of unhealth, it's not as though you can just quickly course correct. And you have to let your body adjust over time again, as well. So that's one of the keys and I think it's slowing down enough. We rarely pause and ask some questions, whether it's at the end of the day, what was the effect of this day on me? For me, it's having great people around me who say, you might need to step away for a bit. And that's difficult for people who find their identity in being caregivers, or activists or allies, or advocates, or just simply involved in the world. We have to sometimes have the humility to say, I am not in a great place right now. And I'm not effective doing the work I do. So that time to recalibrate and care for ourselves is not a betrayal of whatever we do in the world, it actually feeds that and makes us better able to do that. I remind people all the time, your expiring early is not the goal here. Your being here for a long time while caring, having a sort of sustainable compassion. That's the goal.

Omkari Williams 13:09

I love that so much. Because I think that's a huge challenge. It's hard to look at all that's wrong, and say, I'm gonna just check out for two weeks because I need, to do that, for my physical and mental health, I try and remind people, it's not that checking out is bad. It's just you need to remember to check back in. Like, just don't leave forever.

John Pavlovitz 13:37

It's interesting, because I think that's also where the power of community comes into play. If you are doing this work alongside a group of people, you can have that time where you step away. But I had a pastor years ago, who said to me, I was just getting started in my life as a minister. And he said, If you fancy yourself as a superhero, there will be plenty of people who will press your uniform for you, send you into a phone booth, and cheer you on as you head out to fight the bad guys. And he said, but when you come crashing down, there will not be a lot of people there, the same people might not be there to help you. And really, the truth is that no one's going to prioritize your physical, emotional, mental, spiritual and relational health, but you so you have to take ownership of that. Because our whole lives are built on caring for human beings. We have to look in the mirror sometimes and say there is a person who requires care, and it's in front of me.

Omkari Williams 14:29

That is really challenging because the world's on fire and it feels like taking time off is somehow irresponsible. But I so agree with what you say. This is why we need community because they are there to pick up the slack because we would pick up the slack for them. And I think we have to remind ourselves of that we would pick up the slack for a colleague who needed a break. So someone will do that for us if we create the communities around ourselves that we need to do to Be able to stay in this workout for the long haul.

John Pavlovitz 15:03

There's a vulnerability that is necessary to get to that place, I, a couple of years ago, ended up getting diagnosed with a brain tumor. And for me, it was an incredible gift because it, I was actually forced to rest and to ask for help from other people. And in the work that I do, and sort of the identity that many people assigned to me, or that I sometimes carry on myself, well I'm always the helper, the fixer, the healer, and I had to say, Okay, this is time that I cannot do. And that taught me so much about the reciprocal nature. In my case of online community, it isn't an inferior form of community, it's just different. But people really surrounded me, not just my in-person, community, but people all over the country. And it was a great lesson. And it's a lesson that's easy for us to forget in the throes of every day.

Omkari Williams 15:53

Yeah, it really is. And I really appreciate what you say about constructing our lives so that our lives actually support our goals and our commitments. And I think that we're often not as intentional about that as we think we are. You know, sometimes hear people say, Well, you know, I have these different priorities. And I think, yeah, but you can only really have one priority at a time. Priority is actually a singular word. Something is the most important, you can't have seven the most important things right. And it can shift. But I think, if we give ourselves permission to just question what's the most important thing now, it will help us construct the life that supports the work we want us to do, rather than thinking, Oh, well, we're going to do everything, and we don't need help, and so on, and so forth. So I think that's really important.

John Pavlovitz 16:57

The truth is, when we don't do that, that's why for me, I hear from so many ministers, activists, caregivers, health care workers who have burned out or retired early, or had some sort of relational or physical or emotional breakdown, because they were at this place where they were so adept at seeing the wounds of the world, and they were oblivious to their own. And so then you're really not good to anyone. And really, one of the things, Omkari, about this that I really want people to understand is activists and caregivers, we should be giving our best to the people that are close to us. And often the people closest to us get what's left. And often that isn't much at all, if anything. And I've gotten to this practice of giving a message before a group of people and saying if my wife and my kids were sitting right here, and my friends, would they say this is that person that we know, or is this person just putting on something. So I want my activism to be built on authenticity.

Omkari Williams 17:59

I really love that. There's a poet whose work I'm very fond of his name is David Whyte, you may be familiar with him. He has a poem where he says "Start close in". And I think about that all the time, I think about starting with the people we have proximity to, and being as intentional in our relationships there as we are in our less intimate relationships further out in the world. And that if we do that, then the people we have proximity to, then they can do that. And it ripples out from there. And I just think that's hugely important. Because if nothing else, those are the people we see on the regular. So our impact is amplified there, rather than just in the speaking engagement, or the podcast or whatever situation that might be. So I think it's really important that we start close in.

John Pavlovitz 19:00

The word that I repeat in my head, whenever I'm out, whenever I'm working on something is congruence. I want there to be the least difference between my personal private self and my public self. And to whatever degree I can do that obviously, if I'm speaking to a large group of people, my methods are going to be a little different and my posture, but I want the heart of who I am to be the same. And so that congruence is sort of like a daily mantra for me.

Omkari Williams 19:27

I like that. That's such a wonderful word. I really appreciate that. Something else you talk about in the book is you talk about practicing curiosity. I use the words "tell me more" a lot, especially when I'm having a conversation with someone with whom I have a disagreement on something. It's like those are my go to words because they create space, I'd like you to talk about curiosity and practicing curiosity and why it's so important.

John Pavlovitz 20:00

I think one of the things that we do when we're engaging with people, people that we either know we disagree with, or at least we believe we know their perspective, we can stop asking questions about them. Once we decide we know not only what someone believes, but why they believe it, then there's really nothing that we are in a posture of learning about. But the truth is, people we know whether on social media or in the workplace, or in our neighborhoods, we're only seeing this tiny little window of who they are. Someone came up to me not long ago, and she said, John, I'm a huge fan, I've read everything you've ever written. And I said, well, good, you've now taken in 100%, of what I choose to share, which is not obviously 100% of me. And so it's that posture of curiosity that helps us stay open to learning about someone across from us. And it also reminds us that we have the ability to be changed by another human being. And I think that can be difficult to remember, especially when we think we know someone. And in getting back to the people closest to us, those are often the people we stop asking the questions about first. So yes, I've lived with my wife for 28 years. So I know her but she's evolving. And so am I. So I still have to even look at the people close to me and stay in that posture of curiosity about them.

Omkari Williams 21:19

Yeah, I love the way you put that. Because I do think that we often stop asking questions about those closest to us, we're so sure we know them that we forget. I mean, I'm not the same person I was at 20 or at 40. So why am I expecting them to be the same? And I think sometimes we do that both close in and with people further away because we get afraid of what the answer might be. So we just don't ask the question. But I don't think that that ultimately gets us anywhere. I mean, I think that one of the hardest things about doing this work of change making is being brave. It requires courage, and courage is scary.

John Pavlovitz 22:16

That's right, it'd be more common too. And I think, getting the accurate truth about someone or getting a better story about a stranger, what that might entail is you slowing down and addressing the new information. And so that's the other part, there's sort of a busyness that we live in, in this frantic pace that we don't want to be, I'm going to say, derailed by the needs of another person. And or even what do I actually believe I say no one really has time for an existential crisis but once in a while, it's good to have one. And so that's the other part of that. I had to, as I started to get better stories about people that I grew up thinking were problematic, or the enemy or somehow less than me, I had to grieve the old story. And then I had to make changes in my life based on that new information. And so that's all stuff that most of us just don't want to take time to do.

Omkari Williams 23:11

Not only don't want to take time to do it's uncomfortable, it's the whole go along to get along thing is real. And it's hard to be the person pushing back against a collective story that has fed you for your whole life. And that actually brings me to something else you talk about in this book, you talk about good over nice. And I really love that because I've always considered myself to be a good person. But I don't necessarily consider myself to be the nicest person out there. I'm pretty blunt, you know, and people don't always appreciate that.

John Pavlovitz 23:51

Growing up in the Christian tradition and then as a minister later on in life, there was this expectation that niceness was somehow synonymous with being a follower of Jesus. And for me, I would always remind people that the stories that I grew up in showed me someone who was not always nice, but was always loving. By that I mean, always fueled by this sort of ferocity for humanity, I call it, that was really trying to change the systems in which people found themselves. Trying to help people understand their own worth. So that can be a difficult thing to be out in the world like that. And to realize that not all the news that you share is going to be good news to people. No one ever wants to be questioned or have their belief system challenged or have their prejudice kind of rattled. And so it's not always going to feel great, but if we can keep in our minds why we are doing what we're doing, what is my motive here? And is my motive, ultimately, compassion? Am I trying to show someone something that I think they need to see that I'm going to do operate differently, I'm still going to be bold, and I might have to still even be confrontational. But I think there's something that's still redemptive if your motive is to care for someone not to damage someone else.

Omkari Williams 25:13

I could not agree more. I think that having lived in the Deep South for five years, one of the things that this New Yorker found uncomfortable was that people were nice and it wasn't always honest. New Yorkers, we can go to the other extreme. But it felt really important to me to start to be able to deconstruct that good versus nice thing, because the way I look at it now is good matters because you're moving towards something that is going to be ultimately beneficial for the collective. And nice is this sort of social construct that it allows us to have blinkers on and we don't actually have to see what's happening, or engage with how people are really feeling. I loved that whole thing about good over nice. And I just think it's super important for people to consider that. I don't believe that it's acceptable to be cruel, even in service of the truth. That's not how I think we should engage. But I do think that prioritizing good over nice, is a healthier way for us to be able to address the challenges that we're currently facing. So thank you for that.

John Pavlovitz 26:39

Appreciate that. Thank you.

Omkari Williams 26:41

Another thing that you talk about, is the sacred art of staying in the conversation. And I think that we are really lacking in that. At this point, people say one thing wrong, and we cancel them, we stop talking to them, we tell other people that they're terrible human beings. And that, to me, is a path to increasing rigidity on both sides of whatever the issue is. So I would like to have you talk about your perspective on the sacred art of staying in the conversation?

John Pavlovitz 27:23

Well, I think it's such a challenge, because there are a couple things at play. One is for someone like me to ask someone who's a member of a vulnerable, historically oppressed community, and maybe asking them to stay in harm's way. And that's definitely not this. But there are times when if we feel like the person across from us, is genuinely still open, still trying to learn still respecting our humanity, there's a lot that we can do with that. And so often, we don't even want to get to that place. So you're right, we hear those initial words or phrases that are going to trigger us, and those seem to be set shorter and shorter, that sort of temper to say, Okay, we're done here. And I think, when you stay, you allow yourself time to peel away the stereotypes and the caricatures and the veneers. And you see a fully formed human being there. And as we talked about earlier, they have a story that they've walked through, they have people who raised them and who spoke into their lives, and they have maybe a faith community that they were a part of, and they've had life experiences, and, and all those things have shaped them. And so when we can get a window into that in some way, then we're going to be better off. And again, it may not yield, but we're going to really see their humanity and as caring human beings, that should be what we want. We shouldn't want to walk around with sort of two dimensional human beings. And because those will we can dismiss easily.

Omkari Williams 28:53

I appreciate your turning it back on the person who is having the challenge, right? It's like someone says something that offends us. And it's like, well, let's look at where we are in this conversation. Let's not just look at where they are. Maybe there's something there for us too. This is pushing up against a place where we're less tolerant than we like to think we are, or we're more afraid than we like to acknowledge. And I think that that is really important because we should be willing to extend as much grace to ourselves as we would to other people and vice versa. It's like how much grace can we extend?

John Pavlovitz 29:40

That's where the rubber meets the road. My first book was called A Bigger Table and it was about sort of creating diverse spiritual community among people who didn't all agree but then you know, that comes out 2015 Or really was written then, comes out 2016 We have all of this upheaval, this tribal experience in America and I started to realize, maybe I don't want as big a table as I thought, because now there are now people that I was hesitant to welcome or I had caveats and conditions. And so I started to face my own fraudulence, and my own hypocrisy and my own inconsistency. And so we all need to do that from time to time. It's helpful because again, we have a story, we tell ourselves, as you said, No one gets up every day thinking, I'm the problem here, or I'm damaging people. So once in a while, we do have to take a step back and see maybe I'm not as noble as I thought I was today.

Omkari Williams 30:34

That's so annoying.

John Pavlovitz 30:36

That's why don't do it. I just tell other people to. (laughter)

Omkari Williams 30:40

Wait, you mean me? I might be the problem here. Oh, yeah. But it's true, because we're human. And I think that we forget the goal for us, I think sometimes we feel like we have to be these perfect people, we have to be these perfect icons of the things we hold to be true. And that that sets us on this path where it's impossible to hear other people. And this is kind of where we are in this country now. And that actually terrifies me. Because I don't believe that we ever change anyone's mind on anything. I believe people change their own minds, but they only change their minds if they have experiences that give them a reason to. And if we can't be that for someone, then who is going to be that for someone.?

John Pavlovitz 31:37

And that's a huge part of what we're dealing with right now, as I tell people all the time, it's, these are not just you, we think politics, we think theology, we think social structures, and those are all real. But ultimately all this settles down to the person we are sitting across the kitchen table from and in our workplaces, and our friendships. And so how do we navigate those places? And how do we bring the best of ourselves to those exchanges? And so again, yeah, you're right. It is a continual measuring of who I really believe I am, the aspirational version of me, and what am I incarnating? I've kind of written about, you know, when you're following a car, and there's a number on the bumper, it says, How's my driving? If we had something on our backs that said, How's my living, you know, and we had a number of people who call, what kind of messages would we be getting?

Omkari Williams 32:30

Oh, ouch, okay. That could be horrifying. I was not raised in a faith tradition. My mother was raised by English Catholic nuns, and that was enough for her. But I've always found myself curious about religion. And you write about the activist heart of Jesus in this book. And I loved that, because that is not the Jesus that is spoken of very often. And I think it's important for those of us whether we are people of faith or not, to understand this historical figure in that context. So would you talk about that a little bit?

John Pavlovitz 33:21

Yeah, absolutely. For me, growing up, there was this idea that the teachings of Jesus were countered to the culture to the Roman system where Jesus found himself. And so he was speaking about the sort of antithetical values of interdependent community, and of sort of seeing the other as valuable as yourself and sharing part of what you have. And empathy was at the heart of all of those teachings. And so as I began to grow up in the church, and then found myself in ministry, which was a complete shock, I wondered why the Christianity that I was seeing so often, especially prevalent now in America, seem to have nothing in common with that. And that compassionate activist heart of Jesus. There's an image that growing up Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd, many people, even non Christians might know that title. But that's a really complex idea to say I'm the Good Shepherd, meaning to those he saw as the harassed and helpless sheep He was personal caregiver, he was seer of the individual. But not to those he saw as the wolves, to the powerful, and to the systems that were doing damage. To them the shepherd means he was full on confrontational. He was holy terror. So I grew up seeing Jesus as personal caregiver and status quo changer. And so I think whether you are religious or not, those are the things many people can find affinity around. Seeing the individual in front of us. And there's an image where Jesus in Matthew's Gospel says Jesus looked at the crowds and he had compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. And really, it just means he saw people and didn't see what they were doing. He saw what the world was doing to them, their internal condition. And I think that's something we can all aspire to. And then to try to change the system so that they are not in that condition.

Omkari Williams 35:19

I really appreciate that way of looking at it, especially what you said about seeing people's internal condition and what we can do to change it, because that transcends religion totally. To me, that's about morality. That's about having compassion for our fellow humans. And I think that in a country that's really fracturing along religious lines in the most bizarre way. I don't understand, because so much of what I see in evangelical Christianity feels like they are looking at God the same way I looked at my mean next door neighbor, right? Someone just waiting to come and smack you down at the first opportunity. And how is that an improvement on Mr. Smith over there? So I think that we are at this inflection point where we have to look at our activist heroes, whether they're religious or not, in a different context, and then through that, look at ourselves in a different context and look at ourselves, and say, okay, so what am I doing in service of this larger vision of the, as John Lewis would have called it, the beloved community,

John Pavlovitz 36:43

I think part of it, you know, as you were talking is now I was thinking about the idea of, of anger and the role that that plays. You know, when I looked, we talked about niceness, and I mentioned what I call the ferocity for humanity. And that was what I learned from Jesus, that He was railing against the religious leaders, but he wasn't trying to damage those individual leaders, he was moved because of his compassion for people who are being marginalized, and hurt. And so I think that there's this anger that we need to take note of, and make sure that we're transforming that anger into something else. So that our expression, I would call it, you know, righteous anger is this term that often people of faith like to throw around, but I always say, anyone who has ever been angry, believes their anger is righteous, you know, I know I do. And so I like the idea of redemptive anger. Of saying, what are the results of my anger? Did I transform that into some sort of action, or relationship or activism that made the world better, more compassionate, more loving, more diverse, and if I didn't, then that anger is wasted and it's just toxic. And so that initial alarm, that emotional response that we all have, then it's about wisely stewarding that and making something good out of it.

Omkari Williams 37:59

I mean, whenever we're angry, we think we're right. And maybe we are, but maybe we're not as right as we think we are. And if we're not using our anger in service of making things better than what are we actually doing with it? We're doing harm, honestly.

Omkari Williams 38:24

So we only have a few minutes left. So I have a couple more questions for you. One of the things that I'm really concerned about right now is, I am very worried that the youth in this country are not understanding the threat to democracy that we are currently facing because it's hard to understand the possibility of having something taken away that you've always had. And I also think that I've railed against things like participation trophies forever because I think that they give kids a sense that they're entitled to something. And I'm worried that young people are going to sit out the selection. And we're going to wind up in an absolutely catastrophic state, and then they're going to understand what it is that they just lost, and it will be too late. So I'm curious as to how you feel about that. And if you have any wisdom on it because I could really use some wisdom on those.

John Pavlovitz 39:36

That is huge. I was just speaking at Iowa State University, and the place was packed, but it was packed with adults. And you know, there were students there, but not what I would hope for when I was talking about Christian nationalism, and Project 2025. And so I think the one thing about generation that we're talking about, it's difficult to quantify where they are. Because I think many of them they're not part of church communities, they might be doing activism but it's very scattered. And it's really hard to get a sense for where are their head's at. Do they understand the gravity of the situation? The only wisdom I have is that we each have responsibility to put as much information out there to help them understand context. But this is a problem with adults too, adults want a shorthand politics and a shorthand or religion or whatever it is, they don't want to spend a lot of time. And that's I think the demon here is the illusion of we're too busy to look at the fabric of our nation. So it's not really wisdom, it's just simply saying, I'm frightened of it, too. And so I get up every day trying to reach as many people as I can, and hope that it's enough to incrementally move the needle so that we can all take sort of an exhale, which we need to do, and then reassess where to go from here. But we can't do that if things go poorly in November, because none of us will have choice.

Omkari Williams 41:06

We will not have choice. And I think that that's the thing that's hardest to communicate in some ways, because we're used to it, we're used to having choice and the idea that we won't, perhaps the whole fight around abortion will make it easier for people to see that that can expand beyond that. That that's just a starting point. Not an end point. But yeah, it's going to be a long several months between now and Election Day. I mean, honestly, am I excited about voting for an old guy, not that excited. I am super excited about saving democracy so that next time I can maybe vote for someone I'm more excited about. And also, I think that we shouldn't have to be excited about our political candidates. I think that they're not entertainers. These are people who are there to enact laws and make our lives better, I don't need to be excited about them, I need to believe that they're going to do the best for the biggest number of people that they possibly can. So I keep trying to tell people if you can't get excited about voting for Biden get excited about not losing your ability to vote ever again.

John Pavlovitz 42:22

Yes. And I think it's hard for younger people to understand even they might have been 10 years old, the last time when 2016 happens and what that administration, the human and civil rights rollbacks. They probably don't even have a context for that. And so I think it's just looking at, oh, we have a couple of candidates. And I'll just choose one and the one I see more, maybe I'll choose that one or the one who's younger. And it's a very sort of lazy and reckless way to do that. But I can understand it, because they just don't see the decades of work and activism that have been erased so rapidly. People lament the two party system and I say so do I, but I don't want to be a one party system. And so we got to hold on. And then we could fix a lot of this stuff. Because the things that are broken between people who are not part of a really small minority, we can navigate differences. We've done it in the past, and we just have to get rid of this sort of really tribal thing that's happening, we do.

Omkari Williams 43:22

So John, I want to ask you for three actions that listeners can take to push back against the cruelty that is clearly trending in our society right now.

John Pavlovitz 43:33

Well, one of the things is the first, I guess, would be to identify and lean into the burden. When we look around, there are so many things that can grieve us and grab our attention. And I think sometimes we need to settle in on one or two of those and really lean heavily into that getting really specific about what it is that breaks our hearts or keeps us up at night.

John Pavlovitz 43:55

And once we've done that, the second is to find a partner or collaborator, because I think often we get so disheartened, because we feel like we have to invent some thing. But there are so many organizations and groups doing fantastic work in the particular area of our burden. So find that partner or collaborator, and then take one measurable step with them. So do one small thing, whether that's showing up at an event or volunteering, and because that one small step will give you better questions, you'll meet people that you wouldn't have met otherwise, you'll have new information and those will all lead you to the next step. So the key is really the here, the now the small and the close. So identify and lean into the burden, find a partner or collaborator, and then take one measurable step and then the next one.

Omkari Williams 44:49

Thank you. Those are so perfect. I love them. Thank you for that. All right. The last thing I want to do actually is I want to read to you something you wrote, that goes back to what we said in the beginning as it happens. But I loved this so much. And you wrote, instead of looking to the sky and wondering why no one is doing anything, you do something. Do it in the small, close here now and doable of your daily existence, where you have both proximity and agency. Step out of the cloistered place of your private despair, and into a small world that you can alter by showing up. And I think that that is the essential message of your book, and the essential call to action for our times to show up. So thank you so much for this.

John Pavlovitz 45:46

I am grateful for the time really.

Omkari Williams 45:49

This was lovely. Thank you..

John Pavlovitz 45:51

All right. Hope to see you again.

Omkari Williams 45:53

I hope so. I loved this conversation. I loved how John gave us context and depth and wisdom and heart in this conversation. And I'm going to repeat the words I read before, instead of looking to the sky and wondering why no one is doing anything, you do something. That is the wisdom that we need to carry with us as we work through this beautiful, brutal world. We need to do something. So find your something, do your something and take care of yourself. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back with another episode of Stepping Into Truth soon. And until then, remember that change starts with story. So keep sharing yours.